Question for mavman and others

My 398 has been a 1.47 60 ft 6.888 1/8th 99.3 mph, my timing is 32 total all in by 2500.
I know mavman has had some success running lower timing just wondering if anyone else has. I haven't tried alot of things with this new combo, was going to play with the timing some. Didn't know which way i should go first, up to 34 or down to 30.
Do you think there is much ET to be found, or is the combo about maxed out.

398W
10.6:1
Edelbrock RPM heads (1.90 valve)
RPM intake
holley 950hp
Hydraulic flat-tappet 239/247@50 541/565 106lsa
1 5/8 headers
C4
ATI 8" 4.56
28x10.5 MT slicks
Ladder bar/coil over
3200 w/driver
Shift 6000

Sounds like a Mid 10 second 1/4, not too bad.... But....

2 degrees of timing won't gain you too much. Most RPM heads I have seen those folks are running 34 degrees. Coming in full at 2500 is a good thing too. I thought they all had the bigger valves, not the 1.90?

Windsors like near 6000 for a shift point I had a 450 HP version for 8 years in 3 different cars, and that is always where it liked to shift.

If you think you should be faster....What stall and make is your converter? Maybe your slipping up top?

You probably have better the 500 HP. Maybe right on the edge of what a slightly modified C4 can handle. Do you have extra clutches in your drums? You would need 5 or more clutches in your forward drum. If you have 4 clutches, that is probably your issue.

Also, I would suggest (if you have not already) running with a wide band sensor on a few runs.. I bet your going rich up top....

Your low end sounds really good.

Originally Posted by Mikes66

Sounds like a Mid 10 second 1/4, not too bad.... But....

2 degrees of timing won't gain you too much. Most RPM heads I have seen those folks are running 34 degrees. Coming in full at 2500 is a good thing too. I thought they all had the bigger valves, not the 1.90?

Windsors like near 6000 for a shift point I had a 450 HP version for 8 years in 3 different cars, and that is always where it liked to shift.

If you think you should be faster....What stall and make is your converter? Maybe your slipping up top?

You probably have better the 500 HP. Maybe right on the edge of what a slightly modified C4 can handle. Do you have extra clutches in your drums? You would need 5 or more clutches in your forward drum. If you have 4 clutches, that is probably your issue.

Also, I would suggest (if you have not already) running with a wide band sensor on a few runs.. I bet your going rich up top....

Your low end sounds really good.

Where do you get this stuff? I've just been sitting on my hands as you continue to dish out total BS. I just don't have time to go behind you and correct all your mistakes. You are an 'academic' who THINKS he knows everything... and extrapolate your 'knowledge' out into areas you have ZERO experience with.

So, widsors like a 6k rpm shift point, huh? I guess this applies to ALL of them? One with stock heads is out of breath around 4500, where a hot ones have no problem with 7k. WTF????

A wideband CANNOT be used to tune for max power. Depending upon the engine and setup, max power might be made anywhere between 12.2 to 13.2... according what a single wideband sensor in the exhaust would read. A wideband will get you in the ballpark, but a dyno or a dragstrip is required to tune for max power. I have the Innovate LM1, and it's handy for dialing in streetability, and getting WOT in the ballpark... but it can't be relied on to dial in max power. As long as its close, it needs to go to the track for that.

When was the last time you were on a dragstrip? Do you actually have much experience with the things you answer questions about, or are you answers simply re-gurgitated answers from what you've read (and extrapolated) from the internet?

That's a pretty good 60'. Every engine wants something different for timing. I try to set it up with the smallest amount of total advance before ET suffers. In other words if I start at 38 and there is no change in ET at 31, but ET goes backwards at 30, I run 31. The only exception to this for me is N2O engines. On cars that spray I usually take 1 to 2 degrees more away, so an engine that runs best at 31 NA, I will set at 29 or 30 for spray. I'm not sure why, but this seems to help consistency for the couple of N2O motors I play with. Remember, changes in fuel octane and carb tuning will also effect how much timing the engine needs. I usually work carb issues out first, then I play with timing. I also try to make only one change and then put a few laps on a car with only that change. That way you can tell if the change is effective for a variety of different conditions. If it's effective across the board you are going in the right direction.

Good luck

2ton is on the mark. Get your A/F set with the type of fuel your planning on using (based on Compression). Then start working your timing issue. If you have fast burn heads then they like less timing then stock type heads. I have a set of CHI heads on a 408C and it's at 28 deg at 2000. The same motor last year with modified cast 4v heads liked 38 degress at 2500. Our A/F is at 12.5:1 on 112 fuel that's what works for us. If you can get on a chassis dyno for an hour it is the best spent money you can do. You never get enought runs at the track to sort things out.
Get on a chassis dyno somewhere and make two pulls to set your A/F then you can make a couple of pulls at different crank timing. You surly can't get that must accomplished with 4 runs at the track.
We discovered 33hp by closing our spark plug gap by .010 on a chassis dyno just playing around...
Around here it's $175 for an hour and you can get 4-6 pulls in an hour, just make sure you bring your tools and timing light with you.
A track is too inconsistant to try and tune a base line, you spin in someone antifreeze and blow the pass or the enviromentals changes before the next, so on and so forth.......
I tune 4 cars including a blown top dragster and I've always been a piece or paper with a graph kind of guy. I ask the drivers all the time how did the tune up feel and you wouldn't believe the answers. Soft, hard, dah, pulled good but really the car ran 2 tenth slower????
So I perfer a dyno where I can tune the complete car(Engine to tires) for max power and get a good base line. Then all I have to do is used the dyno tune, work the suspension to get it to hook out of the gate. Plus the graph from the dyno tells me we're to shift the car.

Have I convinced you to find a dyno yet...LOL

Good Luck
Jeff

Originally Posted by n2omike

Where do you get this stuff? I've just been sitting on my hands as you continue to dish out total BS. I just don't have time to go behind you and correct all your mistakes. You are an 'academic' who THINKS he knows everything... and extrapolate your 'knowledge' out into areas you have ZERO experience with.

So, widsors like a 6k rpm shift point, huh? I guess this applies to ALL of them? One with stock heads is out of breath around 4500, where a hot ones have no problem with 7k. WTF????

A wideband CANNOT be used to tune for max power. Depending upon the engine and setup, max power might be made anywhere between 12.2 to 13.2... according what a single wideband sensor in the exhaust would read. A wideband will get you in the ballpark, but a dyno or a dragstrip is required to tune for max power. I have the Innovate LM1, and it's handy for dialing in streetability, and getting WOT in the ballpark... but it can't be relied on to dial in max power. As long as its close, it needs to go to the track for that.

When was the last time you were on a dragstrip? Do you actually have much experience with the things you answer questions about, or are you answers simply re-gurgitated answers from what you've read (and extrapolated) from the internet?

Your a TOTAL ASS. Instead of sitting on your hands, try sitting on your stick shift. Just the fact you steal someones thread to make an ass of yourself proves your an ass.

I hope you were stewing all night last night. You have a real special talent for reading statements anyway you wish, and twisting the words around in your own pointed-head little way. Completely taking statements out of context. Of coarse a stock head windsor will not hit 6000.... Duhhhh, that is not what this thead is. Windors shifting at 7000, now that is a huge mis-statement. Those engines do not like anything above 6500. I owned one for 12 years, and 8 years pushing 450 HP. They do not like High Revs.

I don't need your crap. I bet I tuned more engines in one season then you have done with your 25 years of you owning your 1 Car.

7 years ago I worked part time at my cousins speed shop for 4 years tuning 302's, and 351's. Sometimes I would buy used carbs at $50.00 a wack and sell them for 5.0 EFI to 302 Convertions at $250.00 installed. I can rebuild a carb in 2 hours. His shop was making his money doing the conversions, and he was so busy building engines, I was doing all the Timing, fuel lines, and jet tuning. One summer alone I did 15 cars. That is why my specialty is Ignition and Carb Tuning. Soo many guys never could figure out tuning, when the basic rules for it made it the easiest work to do.

We also had a track down the street. Tuesday night at the Airport, $40.00 a night as many passes as you can get till closing time at 9:30. At the time I had my 13.2 second 4100 pound Torino, and can not count how many passes I put on it. Over 200 easy.... Have only been to the track once 2 years ago with my 66. Got kicked off after my 12.7 second run, for safety rules. Can't afford the upgrades just yet but getting there.

Sorry to the OP. Every Month he gets a hair across his ass....

This thread is getting interesting. LOL

Back on topic. I cant' afford dyno time, nor do I have even have a day off during the week to make it happen. I tune for the highest MPH and most consistent ET. Most of my junkers (and if you guys have seen my stuff, you pretty much know where I come from when I say "junkers") all run very little timing. Simply put, I will use the trial and error method. Start at 32. Go to 34. Usually it will drop MPH drastically. Then back to 30. MPH comes back normally, then down to 28...26. MPH and ET usually don't change until I get down to about 27-28 deg. That's on my Maverick, the Mustang is slightly different. It "likes" about 30. It will run just fine at 32 but I run them a little bit conservative.. Keep in mind we're bracket racing and not chasing ever last hundredth. I do the same thing with jetting. I have an LM1 in the Maverick. Great tool. I'm logging RPM and A/F as of right now. I learned that running slightly on the rich side works best for consistency when running methanol. And I also learned that the RPM function with the LM1 isn't accurate. Mine shows that I shift at 10,200 and cross the finish line around 10,400. Tach shows shift point at 7300 and stripe at 7400. And yes that's a windsor..414". It works well. Best ET on that combo to date is 5.82 and at 120 MPH.

Trial and error is the only way to tune if you can't do it on a chassis dyno like me. Dont forget there is more to tuning a car than just the motor. You have shock settings which are important. You have stall speeds, launch RPM, how deep you go into the beams plays a role in your ET's, and a hundred other things. When I was gunning for my personal best, I staged shallow...VERY shallow, the bottom bulb was flickering slightly when I pulled in. Launched at 2000 RPM, had a crap light but it was just off of idle and let the converter flash to 5800. 60' time was 1.29 and some change...almost a 1.300. I will say, however, that your RPM intake is holding you back just a little. A victor Jr is probably worth a little ET, but your MPH should increase quite a bit with it. Probably 3-5 mph if I had to guess. Most windsors especially our stroker windsors that have any balls can use the victor Jr just fine without losing much low end. Cant say that much for a 302 Victor JR....those need to be on a pretty serious motor because of their tiny short runners. You could also probably use a little more carb on that dual plane intake--but it should work great on a Jr. I could be wrong but that's always been my experience, FWIW.

Originally Posted by Mikes66

Your a TOTAL ASS. Instead of sitting on your hands, try sitting on your stick shift. Just the fact you steal someones thread to make an ass of yourself proves your an ass.

I hope you were stewing all night last night. You have a real special talent for reading statements anyway you wish, and twisting the words around in your own pointed-head little way. Completely taking statements out of context. Of coarse a stock head windsor will not hit 6000.... Duhhhh, that is not what this thead is. Windors shifting at 7000, now that is a huge mis-statement. Those engines do not like anything above 6500. I owned one for 12 years, and 8 years pushing 450 HP. They do not like High Revs.

I don't need your crap. I bet I tuned more engines in one season then you have done with your 25 years of you owning your 1 Car.

7 years ago I worked part time at my cousins speed shop for 4 years tuning 302's, and 351's. Sometimes I would buy used carbs at $50.00 a wack and sell them for 5.0 EFI to 302 Convertions at $250.00 installed. I can rebuild a carb in 2 hours. His shop was making his money doing the conversions, and he was so busy building engines, I was doing all the Timing, fuel lines, and jet tuning. One summer alone I did 15 cars. That is why my specialty is Ignition and Carb Tuning. Soo many guys never could figure out tuning, when the basic rules for it made it the easiest work to do.

We also had a track down the street. Tuesday night at the Airport, $40.00 a night as many passes as you can get till closing time at 9:30. At the time I had my 13.2 second 4100 pound Torino, and can not count how many passes I put on it. Over 200 easy.... Have only been to the track once 2 years ago with my 66. Got kicked off after my 12.7 second run, for safety rules. Can't afford the upgrades just yet but getting there.

Sorry to the OP. Every Month he gets a hair across his ass....

Wow! You mouth off to a guy who's run mid 10's at 130+ mph with a manual in an old mustang with ported 289 heads and then bring up a low 13 second car??? Try bringing this wisdom over to the likes of hardcore50.com. I would LOVE to see the responses from guys that actually have something to brag about. 12.7's sure isn't 450 hp unless your mph was VERY high and that '66 mustang has a trunk full of gold bricks. So what was the mph? My altitude corrected 12.7 ET's at over 106 mph (old LACR) showed me I had about 300 hp. 289 with under 9:1 compression, old stock K-code cam, etc. My college daily driver and certainly no drag car. Brother-in-law ran 12.7's all day at old Carlsbad (sea level since it was right by the ocean) with a '95 275 horse z28 with pulleys, ram air, headers, and exhuast. His daily driver. Not anywhere near 450 hp. Your stuff runs fairly good and it makes you happy. Just know your place. Nobody cares how many engines you think you've tuned.

Start low with the timing and work your way up until ET and mph start to fall off. Then go back and find the sweet spot.

If I read the specs right, you have an 8" converter. Screw the "curve" - you don't need an ignition curve IMHO. You flash way past any curve. I'd lock out the timing and and just start moving it in 2 degree increments. Run three passes in the same lane to get a feel for the change. That cam should probably be shifted in the 6400~6800 range.

Use a start retard to help crank the motor or switch the ignition off until the motor reaches cranking speed.