motor tap !

My(351C.) motor just started taping loud on a cold starts then after about 1 to 2 minutes it completely goes away and sounds like a smooth running motor. I was running castrol 10w40 and switched to valvoline vr1 20w50 but it still makes a loud tap on a dead cold start. I went with the thicker oil seaing how I live in Florida and its about 90 to 100 degrees every day but when I switched oil weight it didnt make any differance.

The first time I noticed this was about 2 weeks ago. I set the timing to factory specs at 0 and reset the points and replaced the springs in the distributar. I started it up and it made a very loud tapping noise so I shut it off and looked every thing over good and started it back up and it made the loud tapping noise for about 1 minute then it slowly went away till it sounded like a smooth running motor. So I changed the oil to (20w50) then drove the car for about 2 days and it didnt make any noise on a cold start, but after I let it sit for about 2 weeks and I started it up the other day it was making the loud tapping noise again.

I set the timming at 0 becouse I belive the motor has a factory size cam and thats what my books say for a 1972 351C. I dont realy know what to think, what do you guys think?

PS. I just want to get 1 to 2 years out of this motor until its rebuilt. It runs pretty strong and looks great, but I want some more power under the hood.

Sounds like old lifters to me. Their just bleeding off oil when sitting for a while. If it takes 1-2 minutes to pump up I would think the pump is getting tired as well. Not a big deal, either replace the lifters or just let it warm up before you drive it.

Originally Posted by mmico28

Sounds like old lifters to me. Their just bleeding off oil when sitting for a while. If it takes 1-2 minutes to pump up I would think the pump is getting tired as well. Not a big deal, either replace the lifters or just let it warm up before you drive it.

I would say the same.

If you end up going for the lifters you'll need to look at the tappets on each one to make sure there isn't abnormal ware, this indicates the ware on the cam lobe. If it's bad you'll need a cam too. The last motor I pulled had one that was so bad there wasn't any lobe to be found. My machinist kept the lifter on his display of failures... the point I'm getting at is that if you tare into the motor you need to be prepared for cascading failures.

Beware of the 'I might as well replace it while I'm here' trap. You'll end up with a shiny engine on a stand and a car with no motor... trust me on that.

I was going to recomend you post this on the all-ford-techboard.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/all-ford-techboard/

You would get more views and opinions about this.



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what oil filter are you using? some have anti-drain check valves and some don't. could be that your oil galleys are bleeding down through the oil pump after sitting for a while?

0* timing on a Cleveland? must be a real dog set that way, i don't think any Cleveland ever came with a sticker that specified 0* timing.

i'm curious what the total timing is set at 0* ?

i would install a timing tape on the balancer, set it for 36* total and see how she flies.

total timing is set with the vacuum disconnected and plugged, run the rpm up steadily until the timing light shows no further advance, then turn the distributor to adjust. you can let the engine idle or shut it off to make the distributor adjustment, then bring it back up to rpm to check the setting.

Originally Posted by elwood

what oil filter are you using? some have anti-drain check valves and some don't. could be that your oil galleys are bleeding down through the oil pump after sitting for a while?

0* timing on a Cleveland? must be a real dog set that way, i don't think any Cleveland ever came with a sticker that specified 0* timing.

i'm curious what the total timing is set at 0* ?

i would install a timing tape on the balancer, set it for 36* total and see how she flies.

total timing is set with the vacuum disconnected and plugged, run the rpm up steadily until the timing light shows no further advance, then turn the distributor to adjust. you can let the engine idle or shut it off to make the distributor adjustment, then bring it back up to rpm to check the setting.

That timming I got from an old chilton book it said to set the timming right at 0 degrees It showed an example sow I fallowed the example in removing the vacume advance line and to put the idle at 600 rpm and atach the timming gun to #1 plug wire and to set the flashing timming mark on the balancer right on the timming backet pointer .And yes "it is a dog set like this",I plan to advance the timming until it doesnt ping or start hard it was just a first time around kind of thing until I can rebuild the carb then it will all get a fine tune on the timming and carb.

Anyways the oil filters I use are FL1A ford filters do these have the check valves you are talking about?


The oil preesure is 72 psi. when cold idleing and 45 psi. when hot...


ps.I drained a quart of oil from the motor and added a quart of marvels mystery oil it seemed to like that alot. In a couple days I will have the carb done(rebuilt) so I guess we will see how it starts with a real cold start. what do you guys think?

Your oil is way too thick for the application... Your filter choice is perfect.... Try using a 5W-50 synthetic... From what you've written, the tap should vanish. The thick oil does not flow into precise components like lifters until it warms up.... Check your timing marks on your balancer, as they maybe off. Bring #1 cylinder up to TDC, and record timning mark.... Clevelands like in the low teens advance numbers, IIRC....

Originally Posted by Scott66GTA

Your oil is way too thick for the application... Your filter choice is perfect.... Try using a 5W-50 synthetic... From what you've written, the tap should vanish. The thick oil does not flow into precise components like lifters until it warms up.... Check your timing marks on your balancer, as they maybe off. Bring #1 cylinder up to TDC, and record timning mark.... Clevelands like in the low teens advance numbers, IIRC....

Im not trying to be sarcastic or negative but ive heard alot of differant things about oils and I still have alot of questions about them.

In a warm climate what is the diferance between 20w50 and strait 50 wait or 10w40 and strait 40? I thought in realy warm climates it is all kind of the same. Like 10w40 in a warm climate is basicly strate 40 wait until it is exposed to a cold climate and then on a cold start up in a cold climate it starts as a 10 wait and as the engine warms it turns to a 40 wait. thats what I thought, What do you think?

Honestly Ive run castrol 15w40 and 20w50 in alot of windsors and never realy had any problems only to return to 10w30 or 10w40 in the winter months,but something doesnt seem right running 20w50 in this cleveland motor I dont know what it is it just doesnt sit right with me. what are some good synthetic brands to go with? Ive always used castrol conventional standard oils with the manufactures oil filters, but maybe its time to start looking in other directions as far as oils go.

Does it not sound good to advance the timming until it doesnt ping or start hard is that a bad whay to set the timming? Ive done it that way in the past with the windsors and its worked out for me, but honestly im a back yard machanic ,well by trade Im a biolermaker and a steam fitter so I am some kind of a machanic but cars are just my hobby and I have alot of questions.

So what do think about the questions and things Ive wrote??

If this is a freshly rebuilt engine, I haven't read anywhere that a search for the noise was done. Usually takes a few tries to find the noise, and it can move as it did in my Cobra Jet (there we found a bad oil pump gasket was causing air to be pumped to each lifter).

But yank off the valve covers an use the stick method of locating the noise source. Lifter will stay quiet after ten minutes of warm up even using old junky oil. Install the clips for the arms to stop oil spatter.

On a freshly rebuilt engine, it was famous for the rocker arm studs to begin moving outwards after hot tanking. Considering how much valve spring pressure these enignes used to have, they ought to be moving right now. You can tighten up the nut now, and the noise comes back a week later on after things have moved.

Chilton used to be rather on top of everything. If he has a once California engine, it then gets timed at TDC per Chiltons. Ford said six degrees, but the book was written months before the engine was cast up. Timing via ear then works out best often.


Wm.

Your results with MMO tell you that the oil may be too thick at start up, or it's thinner lubricating properties have gotten in and freed up whatever gunk is causing that lifter plunger to stick, causing the tick... Auto trans fluid in the oil will free up lifters, too... The thin oil can seep into parts better than the thick stuff... Dino oil, like the ones you listed, have a lot of additives that make it behave like 10w-40, or 20w-50.. Synthetics do that much better without all of the additives. They flow better when cold, and keep their viscosity when warm.
After re-reading your original post, It sounds like you may have large clearance issues, (common w/ a cleveland) of perhaps a sticking releif valve in your pump. I would try to get a mechanical oil pressue gage and see exactly what pressure you have throughout the cold to warm cycle, as well as idle to max rpm... You may have a volume issue untill the engine warms up and tightens up the clearances. If that is the case, heavier oilis a must, but i would still look at 5w-50 synthetic. You may also want to use a ZDDP additive to keep your lifters properly lubed, as new oils do not have a lot of it like old oils...

Originally Posted by Scott66GTA

Your results with MMO tell you that the oil may be too thick at start up, or it's thinner lubricating properties have gotten in and freed up whatever gunk is causing that lifter plunger to stick, causing the tick... Auto trans fluid in the oil will free up lifters, too... The thin oil can seep into parts better than the thick stuff... Dino oil, like the ones you listed, have a lot of additives that make it behave like 10w-40, or 20w-50.. Synthetics do that much better without all of the additives. They flow better when cold, and keep their viscosity when warm.
After re-reading your original post, It sounds like you may have large clearance issues, (common w/ a cleveland) of perhaps a sticking releif valve in your pump. I would try to get a mechanical oil pressue gage and see exactly what pressure you have throughout the cold to warm cycle, as well as idle to max rpm... You may have a volume issue untill the engine warms up and tightens up the clearances. If that is the case, heavier oilis a must, but i would still look at 5w-50 synthetic. You may also want to use a ZDDP additive to keep your lifters properly lubed, as new oils do not have a lot of it like old oils...

I just hooked up a gage cluster with a machincle oil gage and its telling me that the engine running cold is at 72 psi. and when its warm is at 45 psi. Im waiting for a part to come in so my carb rebuild will be complete, then I can see what a max or high RPM oil pressure is . But the oil pressure seems to be very responsive when in park reving the motor.

When you said ZDDR additive is that some kind zink additive? And what brand of synthetic do you preffer or use?

The valvoline vr1 is suposed to have zink in it,do you know much about the vr1 motor oil?( This is the first time Ive ever used it)