OEM EFI swap to 69 302 with 3sp. toploader

Iv'e been doing some research on this topic and am batting around the idea of doing an OEM ford EFI swap to my Torino. The engine is a 302 with a 3sp. toploader. If I am correct I believe the 87-9? manifolds bold right up to the early 302 blocks and heads? I'd like to keep the stock tranny BUT as Iv'e read some of the computers use a speed sensor that is part of the speedometer cable? is this correct and if it is are these speedos and sensors compatible with toploader speedo gearing? If they are not is there andy sort of fisx or adapter that might work or do I not need the speed sensor to run the EFI?

Sorry about the double post in Geeral techboard but I didn't know quite where to put this.

You dont need no VSS for that to work. I put crate motor 5.8 from Anderson Ford in a 79 F250 with manual trans 7 years ago and worked perfect. Why do you want to keep a three speed, to save money? Put the five speed and have the great looks and the Performance and mileage of a new one.

Originally Posted by gbic1

You dont need no VSS for that to work. I put crate motor 5.8 from Anderson Ford in a 79 F250 with manual trans 7 years ago and worked perfect. Why do you want to keep a three speed, to save money? Put the five speed and have the great looks and the Performance and mileage of a new one.

Yep, right now it's a money issue and also a sentimental one. the car is a one family car. It was bought 3 mo. before I was born and when my dad passed my mother saved the car for me. I learned to drive on that three on the tree and you just don't see too many of them any more. My main goal is fuel economy and smooth operation. Given the price on the donor parts it seems a better all around option than buyng an aftermarket manifold and 600cfm carb. In the end I think I'll be a lot better off. After a decent set of headers I think I'll be plenty happy with performance and economy.

EFI wont offer you that much economy over a properly setup carb, most of the cars now a days are getting getter MPG due to drivetrain parts being lighter weight, alum driveshafts but a HUGE part of it is overdrive, that gives you an ability to have a better first gear for getting around town not having to put you foot into as much to move the car, and on the highway it gives you an OD gear which really really helps out with MPG

While that's all true, there are a couple benefits to EFI that carb's can't match. The statement 'properly set up' is key. Can a carb match the fuel efficiency of EFI? Certainly. But you'd better be a guru and know when to make additional or seasonal adjustments. Most folks just buy a manifold and carb and drop it on. Done. If there is any increase in performance (including mileage) it is purely accidental or a small gain due to it replacing a worn-out and mis-adjusted one. It's easy to get a carb to make max horsepower for 1/4 mile with minor tuning, but to get max fuel efficiency, it's much easier to attain with EFI across the broader and varied operating range and conditions.

If you 'drop in' an EFI, it has the benefit of attempting to self-regulate the fuel mixture, something a carb can't do. If tuned correctly, either will perform well, but with the constant tweaking an EFI system does to maintain the programmed mixture it will outperform the carb through the various weather and conditions that a carb is oblivious to. Often by a huge margin. The big 'IF' is if it will be tuned. If not - and just dropped on - the carb may do better as it will still 'run OK' where the EFI may stumble and surge attempting to precisely adjust for an untuned setup. That is the downfall of either system, but more critical on EFI, and most folks have no idea how poorly their engine may be running with a carb.

One additional benefit is that EFI usually controls the ignition as well. This is an often overlooked but very critical part of the mileage equation. Even fewer people know how to curve and tweak a mechanical/vacuum distributor for the proper advance under the particular speed and load the engine is seeing at any one moment, than know how to tune a carburetor. All of this is easily modified - even on the fly - with EFI and a laptop or PDA and software. A task that can be many times longer swapping jets, power valves, springs, shooters, pumps, float heights, distributor weights and springs, cannister spring adjustments, etc.

I've been there and done both for many years, and I like both systems for their strong points, but unless there is an over-riding reason (like originality or lack of tuning), I will take EFI every time. I'm not going anywhere near a pissing match over carbs and EFI. I'm just stating facts and some opinions that hopefully make the choices easier for individuals to make for their own circumstances.

David

Originally Posted by PSIG

While that's all true, there are a couple benefits to EFI that carb's can't match. The statement 'properly set up' is key. Can a carb match the fuel efficiency of EFI? Certainly. But you'd better be a guru and know when to make additional or seasonal adjustments. Most folks just buy a manifold and carb and drop it on. Done. If there is any increase in performance (including mileage) it is purely accidental or a small gain due to it replacing a worn-out and mis-adjusted one. It's easy to get a carb to make max horsepower for 1/4 mile with minor tuning, but to get max fuel efficiency, it's much easier to attain with EFI across the broader and varied operating range and conditions.

If you 'drop in' an EFI, it has the benefit of attempting to self-regulate the fuel mixture, something a carb can't do. If tuned correctly, either will perform well, but with the constant tweaking an EFI system does to maintain the programmed mixture it will outperform the carb through the various weather and conditions that a carb is oblivious to. Often by a huge margin. The big 'IF' is if it will be tuned. If not - and just dropped on - the carb may do better as it will still 'run OK' where the EFI may stumble and surge attempting to precisely adjust for an untuned setup. That is the downfall of either system, but more critical on EFI, and most folks have no idea how poorly their engine may be running with a carb.

One additional benefit is that EFI usually controls the ignition as well. This is an often overlooked but very critical part of the mileage equation. Even fewer people know how to curve and tweak a mechanical/vacuum distributor for the proper advance under the particular speed and load the engine is seeing at any one moment, than know how to tune a carburetor. All of this is easily modified - even on the fly - with EFI and a laptop or PDA and software. A task that can be many times longer swapping jets, power valves, springs, shooters, pumps, float heights, distributor weights and springs, cannister spring adjustments, etc.

I've been there and done both for many years, and I like both systems for their strong points, but unless there is an over-riding reason (like originality or lack of tuning), I will take EFI every time. I'm not going anywhere near a pissing match over carbs and EFI. I'm just stating facts and some opinions that hopefully make the choices easier for individuals to make for their own circumstances.

David

The EFI will most likely require a cam change too... The later model 302/5.0 litre engines used the 351 cam timing instead of the 289/early 302 timing. There are several other things that made 5.0 liter engines different. reverse flow water pump roller cams, etc. I think maybe the familiarity and common ancestry of the the 5.0 litre and 302 might make us all forget that a lot of science went into that engine, its not all just smoke 'n mirrors - or just overdrive transmissions that added to the fuel saving and performance enhancement, its a total package that makes it work.

The sequential fuel injectors are a very big part of the package. As mentioned, yes you can tune a carb to match - sometimes exceed fuel injection, but its not easy nor permenant. The EFI is tuned continuously based on several sensors.

also unless your running coil packs pretty sure a computer cant change the distributor curve on a 5.0

Originally Posted by dbu8554

...also unless your running coil packs pretty sure a computer cant change the distributor curve on a 5.0

TFI is not controlled by a processor?

Well my $100 craigslist engine and EFi combo fell through. He sold it to someone else and never sent me the casting numbers so I'll never know if I missed a good deal. I will however keep looking at the local classifieds and junkyards for a gt40 setup.
I went online to check out camshafts but was a little befuddled. I assume I'll need the 351 firing order if I get a EFI gt40 setup or gt40p setup. Compcams seemed to have a wide selection but I was a bit confused on how to match the cam to the valvetrain. Will I need to change the heads to match the 351 firing order on the new cam or will a 351 flat tappet cam install into the 69 302 block? I'm not quite sure if I need a roller cam or a flat tappet or does anyone make a 302 cam with the 351 firing order for these EFI conversions?

Originally Posted by SDJIRICEK

Well my $100 craigslist engine and EFi combo fell through. He sold it to someone else and never sent me the casting numbers so I'll never know if I missed a good deal. I will however keep looking at the local classifieds and junkyards for a gt40 setup.
I went online to check out camshafts but was a little befuddled. I assume I'll need the 351 firing order if I get a EFI gt40 setup or gt40p setup. Compcams seemed to have a wide selection but I was a bit confused on how to match the cam to the valvetrain. Will I need to change the heads to match the 351 firing order on the new cam or will a 351 flat tappet cam install into the 69 302 block? I'm not quite sure if I need a roller cam or a flat tappet or does anyone make a 302 cam with the 351 firing order for these EFI conversions?

This not "that" big a deal, I only brought it up because it can be a "gott'cha" when swapping an early model engine, cam or EFI setup either direction.

...firing order was 13726548 not the 15426378 that it should have been, the 13726548 firing order is for a 351 and 5.0 - otherwise they are a direct fit....

Ford made the change since it noticed that vibration, crank stress was less when the firing order was changed on the 351 - so they made the change for all the sbf. That is the 'official' story; in my mind, it also didn't hurt when the 'Bean counters' brought it their attention that they could also save money if all the cams small block Ford were interchangeable. Wasn't that big a deal - eventually they dropped the push rod engines for the modular engines anyway.