T&L ENGINES IN N.C.

Found this thread and read all the way through. Here is my story.
Actually it is the story of a friend of mine who does not speak english.
He was looking for a motor, found T&L, we read the feedbacks on ebay and while he favoured Keith Craft I talked him into buying his motor here, so this makes it my story too.
Well, we made the contract in Feb.09 and paypaled money. Engine to be finished in about 8 weeks, that would make it early April.
Now its the end of may and no engine in sight. We sent mountains of mails, some were answered but no name underneath. Talked to a guy named Ray twice whose every word turned out to be a lie. Mostly we are connected to an answering machine,leave a message, we will call back....blablabla!
Last mail said, engine would be finished on may 13th, sorry, no dyno-video, camera broke down. No sign since then.
What pisses me most is the way they tread their paying customers. Never had anything like that in my 60year old life.
My friend and I are very engaged in German Cobra Club and we have shared our T&L Story with them all and will continue to do so!
From Germany
Al

[SIZE=3]Doing Business with T&L Engine Development[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Summary:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Got a year? Business at your own risk! T&L´s owner Mr. Lloyd McCleary appears to be technically competent and respected, but has business practices strongly bordering on fraudulent or criminally incompetent. Given his strong position in his niche, as well as the dedication of his helpful workers such as Rob, there is no reason why he could not run a professional organization, establishing reasonable timelines and setting realistic customer expectations. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]A time line of one order follows:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]May 21, 2008: T&L sends quote to Austria firm.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]June 9, 2008: Austrian firm makes payment of $5,400.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]July 18, 2008: T&L informs Austrian firm: “The earliest the motor will be completed is the first week in August.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]August 26, 2008: T&L informs Austrian firm: “The engine should be finished near the end of this week.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]August 27, 2008: Austrian firm makes final payment of $5,512.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]September, 2008 – February, 2009: Despite numerous attempts by Austrian firm to contact T&L, no communication or motor is received from T&L.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]March 17, 2009: Austrian Trade Commission contacts T&L on behalf of Austrian firm. Over the next two months, Austrian government agency contacts T&L almost daily and brings in other parties to add pressure to T&L, including the local Better Business Bureau and county sheriff’s office.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]May 4, 2009: T&L completes engine for pickup by freight forwarder[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]May 11, 2009: Engine arrives to Austrian firm, missing certain parts such as the clutch pack, some of which are included in the price and others not. T&L offers to reimburse the price of missing parts included in the quote.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Helpful numbers for dealing with T&L Engine Development[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Detective Supervisor Charles Hatley, Stanly County Sherrifs Office, Tel 704-986-3714. According to Mr. Hatley, he has helped four out of five customers obtain their motors after extensive delays and he is happy to assist others encountering problems with T&L.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Better Business Bureau Southern Piedmont Carolinas, www.charlotte.bbb.org; Tel 704-927-8611. T&L´s BBB rating: F.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Charlotte Regional Partnership, Vanessa Goschel, Research, tel 704-347-8942, a helpful resource person focused on regional business development, but unable to do anything directly.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Background info: I am a project manager for the Austrian Trade Commission, a commercial arm of the Austrian Consulate in the US and helped to resolve a complaint from a firm in Austria that ordered an engine from T&L.[/SIZE]

Will that say ... That i should contact the sheriff´s office and get a hold on Charles to try to get whats mine ?

Another update on my engine. After 3 weeks, they had the carburetor supplier ship me a carburetor. The flexplate showed up 2 weeks after the engine, but I had purchased one just to get the engine in the car. After multiple telephone calls, Rob told me Lloyd could not get a starter, so purchase one myself, and they would refund the money. 5 Weeks have passed, and still no refund. I also never received a build sheet, and they cannot find the DVD of the engine on the dyno, so I don't know if the horsepower number is true. I am very dissappointed with this company. I put my car in car shows, and if someone asks about the engine, I will not recomment this builder. It runs well, but their service and delivery is not good.

T&L means Too Late.
DO NOT BUY FROM T&L. My engine was built quickly. Then I may final payment as requested before shipping.... then it sat. After 3 weeks, I started calling and writing. I got excuses like "there is not crating material" and "the shipper forgot to pick it up". It took an additional 3 weeks of nearly daily hounding before they shipped it. Then it arrived dammaged. They don't know how to package for latteral forces and the engine bounced around in the crate bending pan, covers, and bending over spark plugs. I returned it. They sat on it for a couple months claiming that they already fulfilled their obligation to me by trying to ship it once. They were not going to fix it until they could get money back from the shippers. It is now 6 months since the motor has been completed and I still don't have the complete package. THESE GUYS SUCK. Once you send your final payment, you no longer exist and they get irrate if you gently ask for a progress report.

Amazing. Everytime a thread starts in regards to an engine builder all kinds of hate and discontent come pouring out of the wood work.

Also its amazing how peoples first and only posts are to dis the engine builder in question.

Originally Posted by 75Squire

Amazing. Everytime a thread starts in regards to an engine builder all kinds of hate and discontent come pouring out of the wood work.

Also its amazing how peoples first and only posts are to dis the engine builder in question.

You're kidding, right??? Andersonrb's "first and only" post below is him giving detailed, first hand information of his own experience as a paying customer of T&L. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but his situation is very consistent with about a hundred other paying customers' experiences with T&L on this thread and on other forums as well! Sure, a few could probably be explained away, but when this many people from different parts of the country (and other countries for that matter) describe their own experiences and consistently report the same types of issues, then it has a lot of credibility. Care to explain why all these people shouldn't be "discontent" and "dis the engine builder in question???"

And by the way, the guy I met and watched his car with a new T&L engine being dyno'd was not only unhappy with the performance of the engine, but he started telling me some very familiar stories about it not being done when promised and poor communication... and this guy has never been on this forum!

All I know is that I certainly will not risk doing any business with T&L and appreciate the heads-up by those who have. Everyone else can decide for themselves.

Originally Posted by 75Squire

Amazing. Everytime a thread starts in regards to an engine builder all kinds of hate and discontent come pouring out of the wood work.

Also its amazing how peoples first and only posts are to dis the engine builder in question.

Please find me 1 other engine builder that has THIS kind of reputation...good luck. I have had the oportunity to work on one of these "nascar shop" bul**** engines, and it wasnt impressive. Plus there are several boards with T&L issues, not just this one. Where is the guy from T&L to set the record straight????

Just making an observation. Dont have to agree with it.


I find it highly suspect that a shop can actually get away with this.

And I was not refering only to Andersonrb in regards to the fist and only post comment. There are several people who's entire post count can be tallied in this thread alone.

Originally Posted by 75Squire

Just making an observation. Dont have to agree with it.


I find it highly suspect that a shop can actually get away with this.

And I was not refering only to Andersonrb in regards to the fist and only post comment. There are several people who's entire post count can be tallied in this thread alone.

In reading this thread, I think the reason they have been able to get away with this is because a lot of people would see their listings on ebay, see the positive feedback, and then send them the money for an engine. Because they don't want to make their engine builder angry, they go ahead and give them positive or no feedback while waiting. Then, so much time lapses that they no longer have recourse through ebay or paypal. When you read through the thread, several have pursued legal action and have shared info with others in the same situation. Unfortunately their options are limited, especially if they live out of state or out of the country. And I'm sure that many of T&L's customers can't afford to hire an attorney to go after them (which might end up costing as much as the engine). It appears that T&L is very aware of this and gives customers just enough excuses or lies to string them along until their options run out.

Personally, I think its great that these guys are making us aware of what is going on. I was once also tempted to purchase from T&L, but fortunately did not. I think one lesson to be learned from all of this is that if you ever do business with any company out of your area via the internet, always use your Visa, give the company no more than 30 days to deliver, and as soon as the first 30 days pass, file a dispute with Visa and/or paypal. Never use a cashier's check or even let paypal debit your account directly in a situation like this. You have a lot more protection through Visa as long as you stay within the guidelines.

I just find it interesting that after reading this thread, you were more suspicious of the posters than T&L. For this many people from so many different places to report the same old story over and over would be quite a conspiracy!
I'm typically skeptical of one-time posters as well, but without an engine, they probably don't have much else to post about!