This article will inevitably open up a passionate debate about the pros and cons of Unions, but that is okay, because good debate is the point. Free speech is what America is all about, so keep it clean and civil, and voice your opinions in a well written manner.
During the past several weeks the United Auto Workers union has methodically walked off the job at GM, then Chrysler, and soon Ford. Their beef is quite simple - they believe that auto-workers should have it good when times are good in the automotive industry, and that they should also have it good when times aren’t so good - such as presently, where Ford has just lost a record $12.6 billion dollars.
In no other private industry are there such feelings of entitlement by the workers as in the US auto industry. When the ‘dot-com’ bubble burst in the late 90’s a flood of skilled laborers were forced jobless with nothing more than a coffee mug and pens bearing the names and logos of companies once holding tremendous promise. In the current economy, where financial institutions such as CountryWide are laying off 10,000 workers due to the sub-prime mortgage crisis, again these workers are not left with the security of life-long pensions and health care. So why should members of the UAW, or any other union, be treated any differently?
Unions were created back during the labor movement of the ’20s. The concept was valid, and necessary, in order to ensure worker safety and rights in a time where our government was immature in this regard. There weren’t the laws, regulations, and government agencies (such as OSHA) as today, actively protecting the rights of all workers.
Unions have quite frankly evolved into labor cartels - manipulating the supply of labor in order to drive up its cost. Just read some of the comments from UAW president Gettelfinger last week:
“…solidarity in the ranks has produced an agreement that protects jobs for our communities and also protects wages, pensions, and health care for our active and retired members.”
“…UAW workers made it clear to Chrysler that we needed an agreement that rewards the contributions they have made to the success of this company.”
And look at these terms, “the agreement delivers substantial economic gains to active workers, including a $3,000 signing bonus, two 3 percent lump sums and a 4 percent lump sum.”
There aren’t too many companies in America that don’t reward its workers when the company is successful? Goldman-Sachs, the investment and finance company, after a tremendous 2006 fiscal year, gave out $16 billion in bonuses, with ‘bottom of the rung’ employees earning at least $100k.
The employees of places like Goldman-Sachs also share in the potential downside. They accept that if next year is a bad year, they may not get any bonus. If the company goes under, they are out on the streets with no lucrative pension or salary guarantee.
Regardless of which side of the fence you choose to be on regarding the UAW, one thing is for certain. No matter how much collective bargaining the UAW puts auto-makers through, it will have no impact on the top-line, and no impact on the demand for US automobiles. It will, however, continue to impact the bottom line for these companies. When a publicly traded company like Ford continues to hemorrhage stock holder equity, there eventually comes a day when the company is forced to shut-down and cease operation. Who wins then?
I hold the strong opinion that it is time the government limit trade unions to very basic, non-wage and benefit, functions such as safety, standardization, arbitration, etc. So long as unions exist, unionized workers will be viewed as commodities, whose pricing is set as a whole and not on individual merits or the normal market forces of supply and demand. Their earning will be averaged and capped, and this rewards mediocrity. It prevents workers from differentiating themselves, and creating higher demand for the individual - thereby increasing ones own chances of greater reward.
Think about it. Why is it that all factory-line autoworkers, whether they work at GM, Ford, or Chrysler all make relatively the same wage? Shouldn’t you have the opportunity to earn more if your company is doing better than the competitors? Shouldn’t you earn more if you are a more skilled and valued worker than your co-workers? Shouldn’t you have the freedom to take your experience to another company that needs it, and thereby earn a much higher salary for your skills?
We’re at a significant turning point in the US automotive industry. Time will soon tell if the industry is to recover and make it, or if it will dwindle away. One thing is undeniable, the cost of labor is a significant cause for the current turmoil, and that cost is controlled by the unions.
As far as the tiny 3’s demise, AMEN! its about time! I only hope that when the UAW worms try to take over Toyota, they close those plants down and move to a non socialist country, if there are any left.
By Dan. November 6th, 2008 at 3:17 ammy next car? a Toyota! that is unless they join the UAW. In fact not just my next car, I am trying to sell my fleet of UAW made Fords and Chevys and plan on purchasing non-UAW made vehicles. Not because of Japans quality (or lack thereof), but not supporting corrupt democrats any longer.
By Dan. November 6th, 2008 at 3:10 amI believe unions had their time but it is past now. There are to many times that I have seen where the union has protected an employee who should have been terminated for doing something that hurt another employee, the injured employee was then run out by the union because he was not a “team player”. that was the biggest crock of bull **** i had ever seen. to protect jobs from being eliminated because there is a technology that can do it more efficiently it not right, they want the company to pour out pay and benefits but not be able to make up those differences except by raising the products price. I work in the construction trades and am in a merit shop where your pay is based on your skills and effort, over all this works well. I had worked in several union trades and found it to be a bunch of bull, you work hard and another person slacks but you both get paid the same, this causes more issues and poor performance than merit based pay. no matter what there will always be some issues but overall i believe that it is better for the worker. The government should not be regulating wages because they are so poor at the current regulations. Auto workers have some of the best benefits and pay in the country and should not cry. To be able to purchase a new vehicle at a reduced price and be able to sell it for a large profit in just a few months is ridiculous, then add in the wages and other benefits is insane compared to the other workers in the country. There are still places for unions, but their main focus should be on safety and worker health.
By Scotty. February 10th, 2008 at 11:49 amAll I can say is joining the union was the best move I ever made for myself and my family.18 years ago.I’m from Texas a rat state.20 or 30 years ago before the republicans give all our manufacturing jobs overseas there was no where for illegals to work hence no immigration problem.Now look at us.The big business republicans planned it that way.They want the have and the have nots no middle class.They stripped rights from unions to benefit business.Definition of “Union” a group of idividuals working together as one.Thats America!!!God Bless Union People.Nevestop fighting
By millwrightrice. October 24th, 2007 at 9:32 pmUNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE BEG.
I think we AMERICANS live in the GREATEST country on earth! We are a capitlistic country. The rules of supply and demand rule, as they should. And if you think the goverment (OSHA) give a crap about you as a worker talk to anyone who has been hurt on the job. OSHA is to protect the company from being sued buy lazy freeloaders
By 64 rooster. October 18th, 2007 at 4:25 pmThat’s great, except you’re comparing apples to oranges here. What, all of a sudden I’m supposed to stop driving because I don’t want to pay for gas? Go ahead and crush the Galaxies, I’ll go buy a Fairlane then. Sorry, but someone then has to be held accountable. Hey, why not take gas off the free market or whatever? Unless you ride a bike or walk year round and you have nothing to do with gas, don’t tell me the crap going on there is justified. You know it’s a crap deal for the consumers and businesses. What are you doing on Fordmuscle then? There is no mountain bike forums here I don’t think. What I really mean is there must be some sort of consumer protection.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 18th, 2007 at 8:03 amYou think the government should control the free market? NO! How about this, I crush every other 64 galaxie and then when someone wants to buy your galaxie for 2 million, canada steps in and says, no, no. You have to sell it for 5k because that is what it was worth before the others were crushed. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Once the governement starts controlling a free market, it is no longer free and the next step is state control of everything, you are standing in a bread line and the state tells you what your kids will do for their job…..to help mother Russia, er, um, I mean Canada. You don’t want to go down that road. It isn’t nice road.
By dablack. October 17th, 2007 at 5:02 amAll I was saying is someone needed and needs to control stuff like that, taking advantage of a bad situation shouldn’t be condoned big scale or small. The guy with generators basically covered HIS expenses and justified. The price of gas went through the roof here in Canada before (in anticipation) of the Hurricane hitting the USA. Prices in Detroit remained stable, how does that work? I know, off topic on another crap topic, but how and who should fix that gouging? Gov’t that I voted should.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 16th, 2007 at 9:29 am64galaxie,
I have to comment on something you said below, “Is the government policing this for it’s citizens? Nope!”
The government isn’t supposed to police everything for us. When you take the responcability away from the poeple, then you get lazy, uninformed people that don’t have choices.
Example of government policing citizens activites:
During the huricane, a gentalman rented a uhaul, bought 30 generators at $200 each. Drove them down to SE TX and SE LA to sell them for $350 each. People were glad to pay it. Sherif finds out what he is doing and arrests him for price gouging. The people that were buying the generators were mad because they couldn’t find them anywhere else and they couldn’t afford to drive 250 miles to get them. Of course the guy was mad because he was just offering a service that people needed. After the gas and rent of the uhaul he was only making $50-$100 each on the generators. I would have bought one too.
Do you want the government taking control? I don’t.
By dablack. October 16th, 2007 at 8:14 am64Galaxie,
Ford is a public company, they by law publish their financials for the world to see every quarter. You can see for yourself what the costs are. http://biz.yahoo.com/e/070228/f10-k.html
To summarize:
Health Care Expenses. In 2006, our health care expenses for U.S. employees, retirees, and their dependents were $3.1 billion, with about $1.8 billion for postretirement health care and the balance for active employee health care and other retiree expense.
Keep in mind Ford lost 12.6 BILLION dollars last year.
They aren’t lying to you folks….
By Murph. October 15th, 2007 at 7:39 pmI wish I knew where to find it but someone broke down actual company costs, workers wages and benefits were a very small percentage, raw material was the most or second. Even still, the companies have down sized drastically cutting labor forces in some cases in half for the same amount of productivity.
Ford’s problem in particular is one of sales, duh right? In a time where pickups made them tons of money, they failed to have a back up plan. Gas prices beat on the top sellers leaving few alternatives. Ford has let go of segments once dominated for tunnel vision. Realizing too late that they need alternatives for people, too little but not together late. Take aim at the competitors domination in segments and play hard ball. The Fusion has done a great job vs the Accord and Camry to name a few. The Edge took aim at the Murano and QX45? and has done quite well.
With this in mind, there should be no reason why at least #2 can’t be reached again. Listen to the public announcements the big 3 have had on restructuring. Very seldom if at all do they mention about cutting costs due to benefits or wage, but realizing they are slackers in segments and getting customers back to their showrooms is job 1. Sure, there has to be some in house cleaning, job eliminating, outsourcing, concessions, but those things have nothing to do why people buy more Toyotas and foreign makes. They buy this crap mainly on the basis of preceived quality and cost. Wasn’t it Ford recently that had 14 different models top in Quality?
Oh ya, to say we won’t take a pay cut is bull, we 98% voted on concessionary cuts in order for a “maybe” product. We would rather have something than nothing at whatever cost.
Global economics is too large for us to fathom, so why nit pick at one thing when it’s 10 billion things at 1 time. I see a borderless “one world” economy which further solidifies the old saying “absolute power corrupts, absolutely”. Wasn’t there a book about this kind of thing, “Brave new world” or something? It seems this totalitarianism global economy is setting a very low standard. All I know is, buying something made in Canada or USA makes me feel pretty damn good, union or not, where it’s made is the bigger issue to me.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 15th, 2007 at 7:23 pmThis is how I see it:
By bassman97. October 15th, 2007 at 6:26 pmMy mom is a member of UCFW and once in a while I browse through her newsletter from the union. Usually, there are articles praising any Democratic politician or calling for all members to picket Walmart and Wegmans. Now, comparing food store (Stop & Shop and Wegmans), though Wegmans isn’t unionized, the employees get better benefits (pay, pension, etc.). So, just because you are working at a union shop doesn’t mean the union is looking out for you.
As for free markets being bad, it is actually better for the average worker since it opens up jobs. The issue is our government doesn’t have balls and is not making sure everyone is playing by the rules. For example, we for some reason don’t want to confront Japan on its manipulation of the Yen to benefit itself.
As far as tariffs, they don’t solve everything. Bush actually imposed a heffty tariff on imported steels and what happened? Foreign steel increased in price but companies that use that steel (as a result of some alloys not being made here anymore) were hurt severely since now they had to justify an increase in the price of their goods.
However, CEO’s are getting a little to greedy these days. It isn’t right that they get paid as much as they do but say if a company is in dire straights and needs a lot of work to get back on track. You think a prospective CEO is going to want to jump to that company getting paid the same or less than his previous job (sounds familiar)? I think not and though it blows to have these guys get paid that much, if you don’t, who is going to fill that position then? If this worries you, take a good look at university presidents and public workers. You think it’s right for university presidents to get paid $1 million and more while tuition is being raised faster than the rate of inflation? How about cops/firemen getting paid $60,000+ as a starting salary and can retire in 10 years making $100,000+ at that point? How about teachers in the cities making minimum wage and in the suburbs being able to afford 3 cars? All this sucks but is LIFE.
On that note, I say that unions are useless these days. Most functions of the unions have been taken up by the government and is now just a fee you need to pay in addition to taxes. If say a company is abusing you and you are not in a union, all you need to do is do what workers did before unions: go on strike. Unions still use this and there’s no reason why someone can’t contact their fellow co-workers and organize this. In fact, that’s how unions started, w/ a worker contacting co-workers to strike. Heck, Toyota is not unionized but is profitable mainly because unlike American companies, they are more efficiant since they have less workers needed to make a car, not because of benefits.
What i was saying about lazy union workers is that unions allow it. They get away with stuff at union jobs then anywhere else. I guess you could call it sour grapes, but its not just one union organization, its was 4 seperate ones i was talking about. I know some are better than others.
As far as toyota, what you said is true, but that makes them smart, they at least have a chance to succeed, you basicly just said that the american companies cant make a profit because they give their employees benefits and retirement. That might tell you that if that company wants to survive, they cant do that anymore. But the unions would never allow that, never take any pay cut, they want more more more. They will choke the big 3 to death.
If the retirement, benefits and wages arent the problem, tell me what is? Quality, i dont think so. they cant cut anything from that dept. Cost? with a new powerstroke in the $50-60k range, i dont think thats a possibility.
By Andy. October 15th, 2007 at 5:16 pmI love how people make it seem that union members have less to do for the same job title. Like joining a union means you get to sleep on a shovel. Sorry about you’re luck, I smell sour grapes I think. The union has nothing to do with peoples individuality. Believe me man, I worked with a ton of lazy ignorant slobs who want something for nothing union and otherwise. Take it upon yourself like I did and call a spade a spade! Union or not, these people are useless, the union has nothing to do with that.
As far as Toyota making profit, well, after years of producing in low cost of labor countries, having little to no exporting boundaries and getting tax incentives from the government to build here, guess it kinda helps. They sell the same vehicle for often more money than the competition, pay virtually nothing towards their workers in terms of benefits and because they have no retirement costs, hum? Make any sense? They are no different than Wal-mart in that if you want to supply us, do so at this price or we find someone who can.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 15th, 2007 at 4:56 pmThere has been a lot of talk about Safety that unions protect it so much. has anybody here heard of OSHA? I believe that is kind of their arena.
I am not necessarily saying that unions should be done away with, but they are def due for a drastic reform.
By Andy. October 15th, 2007 at 4:46 pmThe United States of America Is a UNION of States. A union is only as good as its voting members.I would not want to think where we would be with out labor unions.I am not nor have I ever been a union member,but I reap the benefits of those how risk their lifes and livelyhoods to better the working conditions of all Americans. I think somewhere along the way the adjenda of labor unions has strayed . We will always have those how only think of themselves both hourly and management. but one without the other will certianly fail.
By 64rooster. October 15th, 2007 at 4:36 pmDid mulley deserve the 40 million he got? NO, but is that causing ford to be losing 12 BILLION? Where can that money be cut? Not quality, god no, not quality. Some fat can be trimmed at the top, i agree, and it should. But paying the equivlant of $50 an hour to somebody thats doing something a robot can do, i think that is where a lot of that money is going. Whether you like it or not, its the truth. Ford cant compete with Toyota because of THAT fact.
I have seen plenty to know that i hate unions. We had a guy working for us, came in out of tech school as a heavy diesel mechanic. Very hard worker, worked on the job with us a lot, Great worker. He left us to go work union for the state. still work on some machines for us. For a few weeks he came back telling us how worthless all the people are there, a 10 min job takes an hour or more. He was disgusted with it.
Within the next month he was as bad or worse then them. He couldnt get anything done. We hardly have him do any more work for us because he gets nothing done.
The cops in our small town are terrible. They give tickets for driving 31mph. They would spend hours smoking in front of the local grocery store talking to the workers there, (btw, only cop on duty in town)
The chief is trying to reign them in, so is the mayer, one has been on probation multiple times. But he went crying to his union and he is back. They have no boss. The mayer, city council and cheif of police has no control over him. The city council was thinking about shutting the PD down and hiring the county to patrol our town because they cant do anything to control the cops.
One of my parents friends bragged to people how he could go to work at Northwest airlines as a mechanic, work hard for an hour or so, and get everything done that they get done in a day.
Ever drive by a road constuction site, there are so many people standing around, they are union.
The big joke in the construction business is that you lean on a shovel and call yourself a city worker–>union again.
All people that are being paid big money to work not hard at all, all because their union says so.
Ive seen enough laziness in unions to know they are bad for america and the way our country works and was built.
I just know that if i am paying somebody through taxes to build our roads, or protect our town, i expect the people to be working hard for their wage, and if they arent, then their a$$ is on the street, not protected by their union.
By Andy. October 15th, 2007 at 4:23 pmThe time has come and way overdue…Foreign manufacturers are making cars here and making a PROFIT,because they have no unions…They have better labor because their employees know they have to COMPETE…In the long run their employees will have more job security since they will be in business next year instead of bankruptcy…UAW is a relic society doesn’t need…
By Nedcrane. October 15th, 2007 at 3:46 pmFirst off I want to say whats up to all the brothers and sisters who still do believe in the union(no matter what trade) keep up the faith, yesterday in the Ft. Worth Star telelgram Ed Wallace wrote about how the top executives were bleeding the company’s bank acount by their perks and benefits. Allan Mullaly came from Boeing then earned 40 million for the first four months. Those four months all he accomlpished was renaming the 500 into the taurus. Do any of you anti-union people think he earned that by making that decision plus losing 12.5 billion? Second some 19 year olds need to live a little more and see things different. I hope with all their arse busting they have the smarts to have some money put away cause one day they are gonna be retirement age and some 19 year old will be complaining about having to support them. Somethin to think about.
By Marcos. October 15th, 2007 at 3:32 pmI agree that this is probably too much politics for this site, but… i think its ok sinice its not in the forums. When you click on the story and scroll to the comments, you know exactly what you are getting into. It has no place in the forums becasue many people will get mad about it being in the car section and people get mad about other people’s opionions. It has no place in teh garage or tech section.
But it is very relative to our hobby, our new cars depend on the issue at hand.
I was very surprised when i saw it here, not so pleasently, i dont think its really a good thing here, but i feel strongly on the issue, so i am going to speak my mind on it. Am i right?? I like to think so, but in reality i know im not on all the issues. Do i hold what anybody says against them, maybe a little, but if i ever have any help to give in the car hobby, i will give it no matter how you feel about unions. If everybody feels that way, then this story isnt really going to hurt ford muscle.
I think the main problems with chasing people away with politics is when it starts getting into the garage and tech forums. or in all the stories on the page. When people cant even get good advice without it turning political, then nobody likes it. you dont wanna talk politics, then dont click on this story, its obvious its a political story.
By Andy. October 15th, 2007 at 3:13 pmThis is too much politics for this site I think. I joined because it has great members offering cool advice on fixing up my old AMERICAN IRON. I would have thaught a little Ford/Chevy/Mopar banter was the extent of the politics. Sorry if I seem one sided, just don’t feel, see or hear unions bieng a hinderance around here from anyone, company or union members.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 15th, 2007 at 2:48 pmAll I can say really because there really is no right or wrong opinion is that unions are by far the least of anyone’s problems. If I get hired by someone who is union again, no guarantees there, just things have worked out great so far. Next job most likely won’t be union so we’ll see if it’s good too, every situation is different. Many of todays problems are government related in ways that often we don’t hear about or have no say in. There are too many opinions, it’s like asking if the war in Iraq is justified.
Don’t think corporations like padding their own wallets, explain price gouging in gas prices. The workers carry on and get paid normal, but presidents of oil companies report record profits. Wow, we’ve been paying record prices, who knew? Is the government policing this for it’s citizens? Nope!
By 64GALAXIE514. October 15th, 2007 at 2:43 pmRandom thoughts,
There are two sides to a fence. And the person on the other side thinks he/she is better then the you are.
Whether you pay into yourself in the way of dues, Or by putting yourself in debt to educate yourself.
NIETHER are a guarantee for anything. But either way someone else is making money off of “YOU”, If its to better yourself or not.
Is the glass half full, Or half empty or is it actually full? It all depends on how one looks at the situation.
Is it right for me to tell you what you MUST do? Because I am doing “it”? I think not. Same for the reverse.
Divided States of America?
(insert name) jumped off of a bridge……… Are you going to follow?
Stand up for what you believe in?
Quite frankly, I do not see myself on the picket line anytime soon.
Now, why is it.. GM and Chrysler employee’s walked. The UAW has not “officially” started talks with Ford. And this discussion is on FORDMUSCLE????????????
By Wildo. October 15th, 2007 at 2:06 pmRanchero67,
What you say is contradictory. When other countries “finance our debt” it means that they are issuing us credit. Which means they are investing in the US economy in the hopes of a return. If countries had no interest in seeing the US succeed, why would they invest here? Would you invest your money in something if you thought it was going to fail?
Think about it. The choice by US business to find resources overseas, be it food, raw materials, or labor, is an economic choice to gain competitive advantage. Those things are CHEAPER overthere, therefore the companies can gain greater margins which get put back into the US economy predominantly.
No one is denying that it “hurts” in the short run because farmers, steel workers, etc lose jobs. But in the long run it only helps us because otherwise those companies would have been forced to go under due to lack of profit. By making profit they can create more jobs, albeit of a different type. THose displaced farmers are then forced to learn new skills which will make them earn MORE money. And they WILL earn more money because the skill demand has now increased.
Take a step back and ask yourself this…. is the USA better today economically then in 1970? 1980? 1990?
If you have a hard time answering that question, simply go to google and look at the SP500, Dow Jones, or Nasdaq over the past 30 years. They have only gone up. Now many will say “ya that shows the companies are getting rich.” That is ignorant and wrong… those are publicly held companies, whose shareholders are by and large the American public.
By mastif. October 15th, 2007 at 1:34 pmI’ve read a lot of the comments and there sure are a lot of opinions.
By ranchero67. October 15th, 2007 at 1:08 pmI have a couple from first hand experience. If we give up our manufacturing base, we are done. We will fall farther behind in technology with no investment here. Believe me we are getting close to that happening.
We are now net importers of food. This means the food surplus from the farmers and ag companies will not bail out our debt too the foreign countries.
We continue to finance our debt with foreign countries, and many do not have a real interest in seeing the USA succeed. Remember ,they are planning for us to pay them back with interest when they cash in their US bonds.
You can blame any number of people for the mess this country is in. I suggest somebody try to fiqure a way out before we are all evicted.
Exactly what dablack said. When outside forces stay out of it, things will all level out. People will buy quality products when they want to, and throw away products when they want to. Only new jobs created are retail? those retail jobs will be created no matter what. weather other jobs are gone or not. There are many other white collar jobs created. If you like it or not, America is going from blue collar to white collar. Just like from farming to industrial, now industrial to white collar. Get used to it, or move to the countries that are 50 years behind us and just starting to go industrial.
It is the development of the world. Look at how america developed. Industry started on the east coast, while the midwest was still farming. A lot of industry has moved to the midwest, but still mostly farming. Now industry is moving into the developing countries and the more advanced jobs are moving in.
Like i said, its no fun that industry jobs are being eliminated, but its tough $hit, you expect the world to stop for you?
So the unions are going to get subsidies for industry? just like for farming? I grew up on a farm, but i still think its a waste for the govt to be pouring money into it. They are creating demand for something their isnt, or at least not at the price it can be produced here.
What is the better scenario here? Your precious unions cause the domestic automakers to go under, which is what is eventually going to happen, with the pensions, and the unreasonable demands they have. All you get is foreign made $hit. Everybody here hates toyota and honda, but thats all we will have.
Or the big 3 can go with the changing times, move manufacturing to developing countries, The big 3 are still based in the US, so the profits are coming back to america. And the cars are still made to Big 3 standards (dont know if thats a good thing).
Somebody started a thread that said that Toyota isnt an american company because the profits still go overseas. So isnt it better to have the profits from the big 3 coming to america than to have them go under.
Unions are killing the Big 3, and many other AMERICAN companies. What would you rather have, the company go out of business because of YOU, and everybody with anything to do with the company loses, including AMERICA, or you lose your job, but all the engineers and stockholders still are fine, and amercia still wins.
By Andy. October 15th, 2007 at 12:50 pm“One thing Chrysler in particular bargained for is investment in the USA not China etc. Do you honestly think Chrysler would give it a second thought. Imagine how much crap they’d send offshore without the UAW trying to protect jobs?”
So lets go through this like there were no unions. #1. You would have to go to another company that had work for what you are trained to do. But since you and all your buddies got laid off because Chrysler sent your job over seas there are too many guys that know your job for the number of jobs available. So, either you are the best of them and get hired, or you aren’t and you go back to school or take a lower paying job else where and work your way up. Either way, that is good for america. If Chrysler did that and the product stayed good then fine. If the product was bad and people would buy less chrysler products and other companies would get more market share and would sell more cars. Then they would need more guys doing what you are trained to do. See how that works out.
“Hey, if nothing else, with no union I would have a very unsafe place to work.”
By dablack. October 15th, 2007 at 12:19 pmSo you want to keep working at a place where they put you in harms way if you union isn’t around? Wow. Union or not, I would get out of there. So, you are saying that if there were no union you wouldn’t stay? Great. Unions should be gone. You wouldn’t stay there and you would find another safer job. Chrysler wouldn’t be able to keep trained employees and would change their practices. You have a choice. So does the consumer. I bought some fans from home depot the other day. Both of them were bad and made a bad smell when turned on. I returned them and got two more. This time only one smelled. So I did some searching online and turns out this is a comon problem because the fans are made in china w/ cheap parts not up to american standards. So now I’m buying american made parts. Some times it is worth it. Sometimes it isn’t. I should have the choice! Everyone always says “slave labor”. Well, lets say america becomes 50% of some chinese companies business. We find out that this company is doing bad things to the employees. Someone sets up a website or pickets who ever is bringing in the product. America stops buying the product and the guy has to change his ways or goes out of business and the employees are forced to find work elsewhere. That is the way it should work. Unions stop natural selection. The company can’t reward the good employees and if you don’t like your working environment then you don’t leave, you just complain to the union.
Unions are holding us back, come on. One thing Chrysler in particular bargained for is investment in the USA not China etc. Do you honestly think Chrysler would give it a second thought. Imagine how much crap they’d send offshore without the UAW trying to protect jobs? We can’t stop them from doing this totally, but at least they’ve saved what they still have. Ford and GM the same. Our union asked for a vote in my city for a shelf agreement for future work at a cost of concessions. Almost 98% said yes because this is time for give and take. Unions are willing to work with and in many cases aiding the company to save jobs. On a blue collar level, the union works pretty simply and neither company or worker have issues, the union is looked upon as bieng a valuable tool. My dad is, or was until retirement, a high up management and myself a line worker. If anything, he sided and urged me to use the union as much as possible.
Hey, if nothing else, with no union I would have a very unsafe place to work. I have on many occasions been asked, then told to go work inside or service a powered, non or partially locked-out machine and I refused. Without the union as whistle blowers and rule enforcement, these clowns will do it to someone else over again. The issues locally versus nationally are very different.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 15th, 2007 at 11:56 amYou guys are killing me. Supply and demand! I have worked labor jobs (loading 18 wheelers for Bells), cleaning pools, mowing yards, etc. I have worked retail jobs, selling shoes and clothes for Journeys, Foot Locker, and more. I have also taught kids how to read and do calculas w/ everything in between. I even used to be a mechanic at a Honda motorcycle dealership and a sander at Earl Schiebs.
By dablack. October 15th, 2007 at 11:10 amThe reason I’m saying this is so you know I’ve seen plenty of different jobs. Some paid ok, some paid really well. Now, I’m an engineer in the aerospace industry. I used to work for a company that had a union shop. As an engineer I couldn’t pick up a screw driver to tighten something. I had to write paper, send it around, everyone signs it and then it goes to the tech, who is on break. The screw needs to be turned right now, but I can’t do it. Finally after two hours to get this done the screw is tightened and my day can continue. Now I work at a nonunion shop and the techs, engineers, ect all work together to get the job done for the benifit of the company and the employees.
supply and demand! It is what it is all about. If you aren’t getting paid well, find another job. I did. It drove me to get educated.
Life style. I have friends that moan all the time about not getting paid enough or the price of gas, then I go visit and they have a new plasma HD TV! What a load. I’m watching the same TV I’ve had since I was 16 and I’m 30 now! I watch the $$ close so my wife can stay home w/ the kids.
Unions are no longer needed. If I would have been in a union in any of my jobs, I would have felt the same as some of you because of the crap the union leadership feeds you. They are holding you back. If you have a skill that no one else has and it is needed, you will be paid very well for it. If you have a skill that everyone has and isn’t really needed, you won’t be paid well if at all for it (except if you are in a union).
I know to look out for the illegals. That is a big and still growing problem. Did you happen to notice that i said im only 19 now, so i only work summers. Im in school. I can promise that If i went to full time year around i would be making a ton more. I know that from a few other employees working there.
By Andy. October 15th, 2007 at 9:00 amThere are plenty of people that don’t live in houses let alone houses on lakes. And nobody’s buying houses anymore. The people who bought houses in the last few years are getting forclosed on because they can’t afford them. In the Cleveland area, forclosiers are the highest in the country. Our steel industry is dead because of foreign dumping, and Ford just closed the local plant. We have retail poping up all over the place, but retail sales clerks dont make a whole lot of money. Those are the new jobs in our economy. Retail sales and customer service operators.
As far as construction goes, Your union counterparts are making $30/hr. The non-union jobs aren’t hit as hard as manufacturing because it’s hard to outsource construction to China. But look out for the Illegals!
By Cleveland_Rocks. October 15th, 2007 at 8:51 amhmm, non-union workers making no more than $15, ive made $15 working construction NON-UNION since my sophmore year of highschool. Im making 17 now, be up for a nice raise soon, btw, im only 19. i work my arse off, running from 630 in the morn until 5 or 6 at night. If your willing to work hard, you can make good money.
By Andy. October 14th, 2007 at 7:40 pmgrossly underpaid compared to what? Its all relative. compared to the lawyers? in realitiy they obviously overpaid, but not from an economic standpoint. Our standard of living is so high that people think they are underpaid because they dont live on a lake somewhere.
Certain employees of a company can be under or overpaid, but the majority of a country underpaid? Relative to the world, our people at the poverty level make more than most in the world
By Andy. October 14th, 2007 at 7:27 pmCleveland_Rocks,
Help me understand you point of view:
“It’s already been proven that the added jobs in the economy are not quality wage earning jobs.”
Really….please point me to this proof.
“everybody who could afford the over-inflated prices has already bought a home.”
And who was affording these homes? American workers or foreign workers? Union or not-union?
By Editor. October 14th, 2007 at 7:17 pmAndy, you are out of line. Most American workers are grossly underpaid!
By Cleveland_Rocks. October 14th, 2007 at 6:00 pmThe unions get a bad rap because they are just as crooked as the lawyers, politicians, and CEO’s. But unions still are valid today because the American worker is being paid less today than 20 or 30 years ago. Try to find a living wage at any non-union shop. You would be hard pressed to find anyone making $20/hr. In fact most are making less than $15/hr. Bringing in less than $30k a year, you are not going to buy a house, you are not going to buy a car, and you can barely afford rent. Right now union jobs are the only things holding non-union wages to that piss-poor level.
Free trade with countries that do not have the same work or wage standards as ours will kill this nation. The steel industry is dead because of foreign dumping of cheap steel. Textiles and electronics have been long gone. Go ahead and argue about the low unemployment rate. It’s already been proven that the added jobs in the economy are not quality wage earning jobs. Now housing is going to fall because its been over-inflated for years and everybody who could afford the over-inflated prices has already bought a home.
This is something the government could actually control if they weren’t too busy polishing their own behinds. You need tariffs to control foreign dumping of goods, you need to regulate the insurance industry, because they are sticking it to EVERYBODY, and you have to get rid of the illegals that work for slave wage and throw their employers in jail.
If the unions really wanted to help the American worker, they would go to these countries we have free trade with and unionize over there. Unionize in Mexico, China, India, wherever. Then we’ll see some equal competition. Until then they have to stop protecting the lazy guys who think they can sleep an hour on the job because they’ve been there 30+ years. Don’t tell me they don’t because they do. The reason stereotypes exist is because their true.
By Cleveland_Rocks. October 14th, 2007 at 5:56 pmUnions have paved the way for many of our jobs, but they are very outdated in today’s economy. If you dont like they way you are treated at work, you find a new job.
Are union workers overpaid? Yes they are. It has been said on here how they work their a$$es off, maybe the UAW does, but i know of some that dont. so they make wages that compare to other people who work their a$$es off, but they also have full benefits and their pension. Considering that they can retire with a full pension after 30 years of employment. They work for 30 years making great wages. then they retire, still getting money. So really they are paid 150% of comperable jobs.
So from their first day on the job they work toward their pension? So your saying some of their wages really go toward that. So how much are you really making an hour? Way more than most other people. So yes, i would say thats overpaid.
I dont care if you like it or not, that burden of retired workers is killing the big 3. how couldnt it? For every current employee of GM, they have 3 retired ones. Sure they dont get full wages for retierment, but its definatly not free. Sure there are some other areas to cut costs, but honestly where? The CEOs make way too much money, i agree, nobody needs 16million a year. but compared to 1.8 billion a year, just for retired workers, thats pretty small, not nothing, but small.
You want a full pension, thats great, but you cant expect the employer to pay a full wage AND give a pension, its nuts.
Are lawyers overpaid? NO THEY ARE NOT, do they make a ton of money for what they do? Yes, but its all supply and demand. People are willing to pay it, so they are not overpaid.
Unions dont allow supply and demand to dictate price, they just set it at what they think it should be.
Just because your job is being eliminated by our changing economy doenst mean there are no jobs out there. It sucks to be working in a job thats being eliminated cause of the global economy. But its not that we are losing jobs, just our jobs are changing. the next gen of people wont be making the cars maybe, but they will have jobs doing something else. Im not saying it doenst suck to be made obsolete, but what do you expect our country to do? Stop developing because YOU might lose your job.
Ever hear of the US going from a agricultural country to an industrial country, now onto an information economy. It sucked just as much for the farmers as it does for you.
I am not familer with the UAW, but on average, unions encourage laziness and dont allow people to be accountable for what they do.
Dad’s friend who worked for Northwest Airlines said they could work hard for 2 hours a day and get everything they needed done. but they went all day and were paid for all day. No wonder they went bankrupt.
By Andy. October 14th, 2007 at 5:31 pmMr Asaravala,
By prounion. October 13th, 2007 at 12:39 pmThis is true. The owner of a company I worked for came to the union and told them he was cutting their health insurance because he wanted a bigger boat. The unionized side of the company said no and kept their benefits, the nonunionized workers lost half. The owner got a new boat, a very big boat. unfortunately not all owners are as honest as this jerk!
Mr Asaravala,
By prounion. October 13th, 2007 at 12:32 pmI don’t know where you live but in New York it is the state that forces employers to pay overtime, that is law. the unions don’t control that. Why would you want to give up 20 hours a week above your normal work week and not get paid for it. Is your family time worth less than your companies. Mine certainly isn’t! just for your information I am a former Vice president of a steelworkers local and organizer and former business owner. believe me if unions never we’de all be making minmum wage!
Editor,
The way your comments etc. read, Say that the hourly wage is a problem. That is why I pick at those words.
“The problem is not wages, it is benefits. It is the exorbitant healthcare costs the companies have to burden AFTER the worker has retired - here are some numbers for 2006:
GM estimates that it spent nearly $3.3 billion to care for 432,000 retirees. The cost at Ford was near $1.8 billion. Chrysler spent $1.6 billion.
In contrast, Honda and Toyota spent around $20 million combined on its US workforce health care.”
GM Ford and Chrysler have been in this country when pensions were the norm.. 401K was not always the norm.
Why is it. That a worker for the big3 hires in with a package that entails him/her to a pension and healthcare after retirement. Their first day on the job they start to pay their way to this. 30+ years later they are under attack because the company did not fund properly (I know healthcare being on the books is a terrible thing, That is why VEBA will get passed and the WORKERS are passing it even if they do not want to)-
When they were making money hand over fist!
Seriously, Can I honeslty hate Allan Mullaly because he was hired for the $16.5 million that they are paying him? No I cannot, He obviously must be worth it. Afterall, It is the package he hired into.
I just hope everyone can live long and healthy enough to get to retire.
By Wildo. October 13th, 2007 at 8:07 amDad always said,
Don’t talk about politics or religion.
Add to that Unions, they are political and a religion.
By Mr Guts. October 13th, 2007 at 7:45 amAs an active member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Worker ( the oldest and largest union in the US) I just want to say that Unions have paved the way for all of us, and because our school systems don’t teach this in history class, a major part of our society doesn’t know the reasons why we get overtime, or health care, workers comp insurance, OSHA keeping us safe, retirements, etc, etc…..All these benefits and such are the direct result of a group of people banning together for better treatment, decent pay and a safe place to work. If it wasn’t for the Unions nobody’s job would be safe, union or not. Unions set the standard for pay of the blue collar worker and most don’t want to believe that but its the truth. So before anyone bashes Unions please don’t be ignorant, just take a few hours and do a little research in why and how Unions where formed a 100years ago and then make educated comments on how you feel after having this knowledge.
By Chris. October 13th, 2007 at 6:42 amWildo,
I like your input, it’s valuable here.
But let’s make sure my point is not skewed. Never once did I say autoworkers are overpaid. I don’t know what they *should* be paid because the market is not allowed to find their worth - instead, it is being forced by the union.
I suspect that there are many highly skilled employees, such as yourself, who should be earning far more than the union has locked them in at.
The problem is not wages, it is benefits. It is the exorbitant healthcare costs the companies have to burden AFTER the worker has retired - here are some numbers for 2006:
GM estimates that it spent nearly $3.3 billion to care for 432,000 retirees. The cost at Ford was near $1.8 billion. Chrysler spent $1.6 billion.
In contrast, Honda and Toyota spent around $20 million combined on its US workforce health care.
It becomes very tough to run a business when your biggest liability is retiree healthcare.
By Editor. October 12th, 2007 at 7:30 pm“The United States is losing its middle class”
The US is NOT losing its middle class. The profile has just changed, that’s all. I work a professional techy job in a corporate environment. I’m college educated. I’m today’s skilled labor. I’m middle class.
By Clemson. October 12th, 2007 at 6:20 pmBeing at war wouldn’t skew those numbers around would they…………….
The most common approach to measuring and understanding GDP is the expenditure method:
GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports), or, GDP = C + Ig + G + (X-M)
Editor,
Do you feel that Toyota workers are over paid by chance? Beings you clearly feel UAW/Ford workers are.
Unemployment. You do realize that when a person runs out of unemployment benefits, they are no longer apart of the equation.. 4.7% is Septembers count from the Bureau of labor statistics. In 2000 the percentage was 3.8% so we are hardly near our lowest in the past decade.
By Wildo. October 12th, 2007 at 6:04 pmI have a very big problem with a subject you do not address, that is the tremendous, obscene compensation given to CEO’s, regardless of their companies’ performance. Why should they be rewarded at all when the companies for which they are responsible decline precipitously? How much did Allen Mullally get? How can you hold people, who bust their asses bolting doors together all day, responsible for his decisions? He gets his money from increasing the value of Ford’s stock, any way he can. Including cutting labor costs.
By smokeshow. October 12th, 2007 at 5:31 pmThe United States is losing its middle class. Wealth is becoming concentrated into the hands of a very few. This is the first generation who may actually have it worse than their parents (unless you’re wealthy). Whether or not you admit it, we got the largest middle class in the history of civilization partly because the people who actually produced things became organized, thereby gaining power. Thereby gaining wealth.
The comparison to dot.coms and Goldman-Sachs is not valid. If not ridiculous. Union people gained their rights through much struggle, hardship, and even death in the 1930’s. And they actually produced things. Things of value. Which can be said for neither dot.coms nor Goldman-Sachs.
The fact that health care is so expensive is not the fault of unions. Of course, they want health care for their members. How else are they going to get it without going through their employers? That’s a problem with our health care system. When GM spends more on health care than steel, it’s not because steel is so cheap, and it’s not because their workers have extreme demands. They just want their share.
This comment speaks precisely to my gripe with anybody on strike.
“I wonder how Mr Asaravala would feel if his boss told him to do 30% more work for 50% less money.”
If that were me I wouldn’t “feel” anything. I’d just get another job. No union required.
By Clemson. October 12th, 2007 at 4:57 pmprounion,
You are right, I have no first hand knowledge of how unions work - I have never been in a union.
On the other hand, I have plenty of experience with the work scenarios you describe. I have worked for plenty of employers where I’ve had to put in 60 hours a week at times. And guess what, I did it with the same salary, and no “union” forcing the employer to pay me overtime.
I’ve also come into work at 8am, and been laid off at 3pm with nothing more than a final check and 30 days to find healthcare - no union guaranteeing I still get paid or still get benefits.
So, you tell me which is the tougher test?
More importantly, why take only the employees view. If you ran a business do you want to be dictated to as to how you compensate your employees? If I am about to go out of business, as painful as it is, I’d like the right to cut my workforce.
By Editor. October 12th, 2007 at 4:53 pmMr Asaraval displays a serious lack of first hand knowledge of how unions work. Union workers don’t get anything unless the company’s management agrees to it. The worker agrees to work quotas and the company agrees to pay accordingly. Now the company wants to raise the work quotas AND pay less for it. I wonder how Mr Asaraval would feel if his boss told him to do 30% more work for 50% less money. Somehow I doubt he would cheerfully agree that it was time for him to be “flexible”.
By prounion. October 12th, 2007 at 4:16 pmThere is not a company in this country that is unionized that did not, in some way, ask for it! By their eploitative and abusive treatment of workers they begged to be unionized. If you think this treatment has stopped you are wrong. At Delphi in New York the geniuses that run the company asked for almost 50% wage reductions
By prounion. October 12th, 2007 at 4:01 pmfrom the hourly workers and at the same time went to court to give $50 million dollars in bonuses to the Salary workforce. Who is really being overpaid? Do you think the white collars make less than the hourly?
First off nobody makes you work for any company. Secondly the union hasn’t been your best friend in who they support. Isn’t it odd that now that the Dem’s control congress they are defunding your advocate agency that looked at what unions do with your dues and your pension money? They had caught a bunch of crooked union officials the past few years who had STOLEN YOUR (union members from various unions) money for their own enrichment. So do you pay to have someone steal from you? Do their political views trump yours? Should they be involved in issues not associated with your job? I mean really, does a hot button issue like abortion have anything to do with an auto industry employee? I think both the management and the unions are at fault. Eventually the unions will succeed at convincing the corperations that it is too much of a PITA to keep your job here. In case you haven’t noticed your peers down the road working under foreign owned companies make less yet their cars are what most people are now buying. You UAW folks ought to take a nice long trip out to either coast and see what is on the roads here. SADLY most of the new cars you see are not Big 3 products. Many of those jobs exist only because the UAW has made deals in the past keeping jobs that could have been automated. Management is equally at fault. Do I have to say it twice. The Union has fed you a line and the management has as well. If you are a union member you are probably also a stock holder. Gee how has that stock done lately? That is your retirement nest egg too and mine as well. Look at the overall picture. Be very thankful you have what you have, many are making bigger sacrifices for less as volunteers in the armed forces. You need to be very skeptical of everything that your union leadership says and maybe almost have group that challenges their actions so you get your dues worth. Who is pushing ever more regulation on the auto makers. Why isn’t the quality PERCEIVED properly - is that guy down the line doing as good a job as you? Don’t take the union stuff personally, there are some other unions out there that have made a bad name for the others and at times the UAW falls in that catagory. The ILWU and TEAMSTERS are probably the worst. Time moves on and things change. Be flexible, you might have a better deal without a union, there are certainly enough laws now that most of the reasons unions were created are no longer valid.
By K Black. October 12th, 2007 at 1:37 pmChooch,
Thanks for taking the time to give the debate thought and to articulate your comments.
First of all, I’m not familiar with the thread in the garage that was closed. I suspect it was probably closed because pages deep, it got personal or way off topic. We don’t close threads that are good natured debate.
I’d like to counter your major points, particularly about free trade and globalization. It is widely (unanimously in fact) accepted amongst economists that globalization of economies is a good thing. It drives competition by bringing more firms into the marketplace, increasing choice, and thereby lowering the costs of goods.
You need only look at America’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP), that is the sum of all the goods and services produced by a country, to appreciate this. We are over 14 trillion dollars in 2006. The next closest country is Japan at 4.5 trillion. The entire worlds GDP is 44 trillion - we are 32% of that!
Our GDP has only grown over the history of the nation, regardless of who we trade with.
Secondly, you have to realize the US runs a trade imbalance. We buy more from overseas than we sell because we consume more. However, you cannot expect countries that we buy from, to also buy from us at the same level! Our major trading partners are, in this order: Canada, Mexico, Japan, UK. That makes up 50% of our exports. As you can see, there are geographical factors, as well as standard of living…three of those countries have similar standards of living and therefore can purchase US goods.
In the last year alone our net exports have risen due to the falling dollar valuation.
Thirdly, if as a nation we truly have “lost respect for the American worker” how is it that unemployment is about at the lowest it has ever been (4.7%)?
There are more jobs now then ever before in the history of US industrialization. But this doesn’t mean that all the jobs that were around in the 20’s, 50’s and even 70’s are around today. That is the dynamic of a economy, and world, that is technologically and economically growing.
Look at it this way. For every product we decide to “import” rather than produce here, we create nearly 3 jobs to the previous 1. For instance, you need someone to procure that material and manage the supplier, someone to handle its transport, and so forth.
You mentioned TV’s. 50 years ago TV’s were black and white. Today, due to overseas competition, they have a magnitude of advancement, dozens of suppliers, and as a result the prices are comparatively lower then ever! That would not have happened had we tried to limit TV production to the US.
It’s a tough debate, but you have to start with the economic principles and conditions driving it. The problem, in my mind, with unions is that they ultimately hinder US laborers from advancing. If Ford shuts down because they cannot be profitable, because they cannot use cheaper labor or materials, Fords unionized employees will be the ones hurt the most. Without unions dictating labor agreements, US autoworkers would be far better able to adapt to the changing industry.
By Editor. October 12th, 2007 at 1:34 pmWell put chooch, you read my mind. If anything, Unions have helped keep jobs here. Think about it, companies would have hopped on the band wagon years ago without unions stepping in and shame on them try and keep Americans and in my case Canadians working. Something else is the more people make, the more they spend, which ultimately yields them more money to buy things and so on. When a so called “overpaid” union person buys something made offshore, it only helps justify producing offshore. Do you think the Chinese worker gets a pay increase? Nope. “Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign”- Godamn right! When given the choice of what product to buy, read the label and do the right thing. Unions also get involved in communities, projects, fundraisers, rallies and so on. The problem of today has nothing to do with unions but politics and government. The idea of unionized people bieng overpaid? What about Lawyers? People should read up on unions before saying they are the root of economic downfalls.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 12th, 2007 at 1:29 pmChirag,
There are a couple of things that I want to point out here. I started the thread that was closed in the garage when I merely stated my support for the American Worker! It just happened to be the UAW workers at that time. But I support every American worker who has come under attack because he or she is overpaid. What a bunch of crap.
IMHO this country, its citizens and it’s government, have lost nearly all respect for the American worker. He/she was forced to accept a theory that so called “Free Trade Agreements” would work to our benefit by opening up new markets around the world to our goods and services. It would work toward raising the standard of living of workers in those countries by allowing their goods to be marketed here in return. Sounded good to all of the people in government when they were sold on the idea by the corporate funded Political Action Committee’s. Never brought to a vote by the people. You should bear in mind that most all politicians in Washington are rich people who talk about “mainstreet” but can not find it on a map!
So we open up trade with China, Korea, Japan, Mexico and others. However, their governments impose high tariffs (taxes) on our goods. Putting our goods at a non-competitive price in their country and nobody buys them. They flood our markets with goods that are cheaper for the American consumer to buy and the rest is the history of where we are now.
This is where I will point out that the American consumer has to take some of the blame for the current situation. Did you ever see the PBS program titled “Wal-Mart is not good for America.” It really hits home at how the American Manufacturer was forced to lower his prices to get Wal-Mart to stock his goods. That in turn forced many of them to either go out of business or move manufacturing out of the country to take advantage of the slave labor pool and be able to compete for the American consumers money. Remember brand names like RCA, GE, Westinghouse, and many other electronics manufacturers. You can not find a TV made in America today, why? I think you know the answer.
In your letter you talked about changing companies to get better pay for better performance rather than equal pay for equal work. Think of how this theory may have worked…Our government refuses to allow goods made in other countries to be marketed in America unless they meet our strict standards and pay their workers wages similar to the American Worker. I know some may say that we have no right to impose those regulations when in reality the American worker has been forced to accept just the opposite. Our markets are flooded with sub standard, cheaper goods and our workers are forced into loss of jobs endless pay cuts and constant attack from the manufacturers, consumers, non-union workers, the media and government claiming they have been overpaid and their situation is of their own making. All because the American consumer likes to think they are saving money by buying cheaper goods and justifying it by telling themselves that it is better quality than the American made products. Sounds a bit un-patriotic to me.
Today you have the media selling the consumer on “percieved quality” of the import cars being better than American made cars, which is totally not true, and it has become a black hole that is probably going to suck all of the manufacturing jobs out of this country if left unchecked. Not that long ago there were a lot more blue collar and white collar jobs in American manufacturing companies AND the auto industry, not JUST the auto industry. I mention this because the suffering has affected everyone in the industry, union and company alike.
So have unions served their purpose? Are they dinosaurs in todays global economy? Maybe, but I believe that companies have no respect for their workers. Their only loyalty is to the dollar. If they could afford to padlock the plants and move it all out of America all at once, they would. Of course that might get the Government to turn against them and put a stop to it, so they have chosen to do it much more slowly, under the radar, blaming the workers and forcing them to take cuts to avoid putting the company out of business while the people at the top live like kings. That is called class seperation and that is not good for America either. If the rich keep getting richer and the poor get poorer their will be much bigger problems to deal with down the road.
I will close by stating something that has come to mind as I write this reply. If the American cars are ‘percieved” to be inferior in design and quality whose fault is that really? I say that it is not the assembly workers fault. If you believe the public buys foreign cars because they are nicer looking or better than American cars, who should change that? I say they designers. The engineers and the people who create the whole vehicle and then break it down into the tinyest parts and make it possible for one to roll of the assembly line every second somewhere. All the assembly worker does is put the pieces back together. If the consumer does not buy the car how is that the fault of the guy who put together what he was given to put together? It’s time to stop blaming the assembly person for the American manufacturers problems.
Remember that if you do not support the American worker and his quest for a better standard of living in America you are supporting another countries workers and a better standard of living somewhere else in the world. Very few other nations in the world are consumer driven like America. Instead they are producer nations that allow their manufacturers to pay slave labor wages. Our companies are in business to turn a profit. Less wages means more profit. Pretty simple equation but not a fair one for the American worker. He won’t ever win. He will just have to give up more and more unless he stands together and shouts out Enough Is Enough!
By Chooch65. October 12th, 2007 at 12:39 pmI’m a UAW Skilled Trades member. I’m by no means overpaid. Is it wrong to want a pension or medical care after I have spent 25-35 years busting my butt for the company? Lets just ask the non-represented work force, how about a pay cut? Cut in your medical benefits? Or how about giving up your retirement?
There are issues I do not agree with that our local has handled. But you know what, I’m a member and I get a vote. If your not your passive and going to let other make decisions for you. And we have recently made major concessions to help our company in a slow market. But when times are good, we expect to be remembered.
By bucketobolts. October 12th, 2007 at 12:17 pmUnions were great when they were needed. It is my belief that in the United States, those days have passed. Now we have the Teachers Unions that are afraid of standardized testing for our kids because it will expose the fact that they teach a lot of garbage, and not the “three R’s”. Private schools consistenly outscore public schools in virtually every area that can be scored, including socialization skills. Scripps spelling bee is now consistenly won by home schooled children.
By gee. October 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amUnions are afraid of public sector workers (non union) (scabs, as they are called by unions) because they are often quite happy to make less than union workers and they do a good job. Competition is always a good thing, and if a union gets in the way of productivity and company viability, axe it and start over. Yes, you too can be fired.
As a laid off CAW member, all I can say is really anymore, the union and the company often, but not always, work together. Workers cannot be blamed for the wages or bonuses they receive, it’s bargained and accepted by both sides for a period of 3 years. Alot can happen in 3 yrs and does. The UAW/CAW get scrutinized alot because I believe the size they are in comparison, but principals are the same. Other companies come here, have a wage, not nearly the benefits etc and still charge the same if not more than the “domestics”. So is it really a surprise they are on the rise? Build it cheaper means building it somewhere else at a fraction the cost it takes here. Basically condoning slave labour, ignoring safety and environmental concerns and so on.
Unions gave me one of THE most safest places to work, benefits and wages that communities thrive on and a medium between worker and company. Little of the crap non-unioned facilities is published and of course, government is VERY anti-union at a federal/ state or provincial level. My biggest beef right now is the gov’t allowing manufacturing to be swept to offshore poverish countries. Free trade with Korea? No, autopact of 1965? You bet.
By 64GALAXIE514. October 12th, 2007 at 11:33 amIM sorry, One last thing I forgot to respond to. The UAW workers ARE the UAW. Am I happy with everything that UAW as a whole chooses to do? No. Its a majority vote and your not going to please everyone and do whats right all of the time. For instance, Look at who leads our country. I did not vote for him….
By Wildo. October 12th, 2007 at 11:11 amI would honestly love to counter point your article at this very moment, But quite frankly I am very tired. Contrary to popular belief, When I go to work (I am a FoMoCo ee) I do not go there to sit and drink, Or read the paper or sleep or anything else that the media has fed the public so heavily on. This job is VERY demanding on your body as a whole. But I am going to re-read the article once I am rested and mentally up for doing so after this final tidbit.
YOUR article primarily speaks about WAGES. 2 things I can quickly point out.
1- If the wages in your opinion for GM/Chrysler and Ford ee’s are so out of line (which they are not). Why is it there was no wage reduction in the current contract for GM? UAW or not, The company still runs the show.
2-Paid to perform. When you work on the line, You HAVE TO PERFORM! Everyday, ALL day.
By Wildo. October 12th, 2007 at 11:06 amLets say you have 3 tasks to complete, And you have 20 seconds to complete those three tasks. Your day goes as follows 123-123-123-123-123-123-123-123 all day every day. You better hope there is a quality stop for a drink of water. You dont have time to do it otherwise.
Wildo,
You are right, there is controversy regarding his salary so I retract that point.
What makes you think this article is an attack on union WORKERS? Please re-read it, it is an opinion on the union organization and management. In fact, I make the point that auto workers could very well be making MORE money without the unions dictating their earnings.
I respect union workers just the same, whether they work in a union or as individuals.
I encourage you to provide a counter point…tell me and others the pros of unions. Should other industries (e.g. aftermarket speed parts makers) also be unionized?
By Editor. October 12th, 2007 at 10:32 amIs there really a need for this on FORD MUSCLE Chirag?
You NEED to read the article in the supplied link. Your information about Ron’s salary is totally incorrect. What are you trying to get started here Mr.FordMuscle?
(copy and paste)
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070413/AUTO01/704130353/1148
And your administrators here at FORDMuscle want to delete and close topics in the GARAGE when they may get a little heated. But here your posting a article that pretty much was a discussion in the GARAGE and it got CLSOED?
Double standard if you ask me. You have many UNION workers that come here, And you want to PUBLICLY piss on us? I have contributed financially and mentally to FordMuscle for years. And this is the thanks I get?
Union workers made the car’s/engines that your site is representing!
By Wildo. October 12th, 2007 at 10:16 am